Monday, February 21, 2005

The 50 Reasons I Support the Fair Tax

    FairTax and Individuals and Families
    (Family-friendly tax reform)



  1. It allows workers to keep 100% of their pay, with nothing withheld for the IRS or for Social Security and Medicare payments.

  2. It is revenue neutral with the present income and payroll tax system, funding the federal budget at current levels.

  3. It shifts the tax to consumption. Records show that consumption is more stable than income, therefore the tax revenue stream is likely to be a more stable and predictable amount.

  4. It is progressive, a “prebate” of the tax amount up to the poverty level is given to everyone. This means that those spending below the poverty level have a net gain because the “prebate” exceeds the amount paid in taxes. (Under the present system the working poor pay the 7.65 percent payroll tax even if they get a full refund of income tax withheld.)

  5. It doesn’t tax pre-owned items – clothes, cars, homes. Only new items are taxed when sold by a business to an individual.

  6. It is expected to remove an average of 22% of the cost of American made goods by removing the built-in payroll tax (the other 7.65% of earnings that employers pay), corporate income tax, and other business taxes that are now passed to consumers as an “embedded" tax of approximately 22% due to the cascading of income and payroll taxes paid by U.S. employers, at every step of production, to the U.S. Treasury. Competition will cause prices to fall by approximately that amount, on average.

  7. It allows families to save more for home ownership, education, and retirement. An average family making $50,000 will have $7,500 more spendable income.

  8. It removes the need for formal accounts of the 401(k), IRA, HSA, etc., varieties. Anyone, rich or poor, will be able to set up any kind of savings or investment account without regard to taxes or the government. No special knowledge of tax law is necessary.

  9. It makes educational tuition a tax-free expenditure of tax-free income.

  10. It eliminates the income tax and the IRS. Members of Congress and the public overwhelmingly agree that the current internal revenue code is cumbersome, intrusive, coercive, and inefficient.

  11. It eliminates 90% of the cost of compliance. American families and American businesses waste an estimated $250 – $600 billion per year (and countless hours of time) doing the paperwork necessary to comply with the current tax code. That is roughly $1,000 – $2,000 annually for every man, woman and child in the U.S. (Businesses typically pass their tax bills and compliance costs on to the consumer, i.e., individuals and families.)

  12. It’s simple, unambiguous, and certain, the opposite of the current tax code, 60,044 pages and counting.

  13. It assures that no American will find, at the end of the year, a need to get a loan to pay taxes as an alternative to penalties, interest, or cheating.

  14. The broader tax base comprises everyone spending money in the U.S., including the ten percent of our economy (an estimated $1 trillion) that today is underground or under the table. Under the FairTax, the illegal drug dealer will pay his tax just like the rest of us when he buys his sunglasses, BMW, and other items, as will those who work for cash and undocumented immigrants, all of whom receive government and societal benefits.

  15. It encourages work by letting workers keep 100% of their earnings and giving a rebate, in addition, making the notion that “the more you work, the more money you have”, a reality, unlike the current system where welfare is lost when you go to work, so the first dollars earned after taxes just offset what a welfare recipient is currently receiving in assistance, so working is perceived as disadvantageous.

  16. It allows more of the lower income families to become home owners by allowing a second job income above their current income (all tax free) to be applied to a mortgage. Money for down payments for homes is also saved totally tax free, causing it to accumulate faster.

  17. It has the result that all lending in America will be at the equivalent of today’s tax exempt interest rates, which are 25%-30% less than today’s taxable home mortgage interest rates. This will create a huge boom in housing purchases and allow existing homeowners to refinance and reduce their cost of homeownership substantially.

  18. It allows families to retain farms and businesses in the hands of those who built them through the elimination of the death tax.

  19. It allows families to give tax-free assistance to one another by eliminating the gift tax.

  20. It gives individuals (and businesses) the right to donate as much as they want to in a given year to charitable causes, without concern for exceeding an allowed limit on giving.

  21. It encourages individuals to self-insure, making the health system more direct-pay (no 3rd party pay), thus bringing costs down.

  22. It puts an end to the anxiety for honest taxpayers that begins soon after January 1 for most of use, culminating in wondering whether we’ve claimed everything we legally could and nothing we shouldn’t, all without raising questions at the IRS. It makes April 15 just another day. (Perhaps it will be a holiday after the FairTax is enacted!)

    FairTax and Social Security and Medicare

  23. It eliminates the regressive payroll tax that hurts the poor. Currently, every one of us is taxed a minimum of 7.65% on our first-dollar of wages up to $90,000 (the cap for FICA, not Medicare), if we earn that much. It provides funding for Social Security and Medicare at a level equal to the current system.

  24. It provides that all 290 million Americans and 51 million visiting tourists fund Social Security and Medicare with their purchases. Today only 110 million workers fund these programs via deductions from their paychecks.

  25. It assures that the wealthiest Americans will be voluntarily helping to fund social security with every last dollar they spend above the poverty level. Today, earnings are subject to FICA taxes only up to $90,000. The wealthiest Americans therefore do not pay into the system above that amount. If their earnings are from investments, no earnings fund the Social Security system.

    FairTax and the Economy

  26. It increases investment in business by eliminating the capital gains tax.

  27. It allows for better planning by businesses, because they no longer have to consider the tax implications of everything they do.

  28. It makes higher employment or better compensation possible in the small business sector, where today it costs approximately three dollars in compliance costs to pay one dollar in payroll and income taxes.

  29. It makes American products more competitive overseas by removing the embedded tax from them, thus lowering the prices of our exports, which compensates for low foreign wages.

  30. By making our exports more competitive overseas, it lowers our balance of trade deficit and increases employment at home.

  31. By removing the embedded tax from American products, it makes them more competitive with imports here, compensating for the low cost of imported products from which taxes have been removed before exportation to the U.S.

  32. It encourages investment in companies located in the U.S., thus providing a home for money already in the U.S. and attracting more. The U.S. will be the most attractive tax-free haven in the world for doing business.

  33. It encourages repatriation to the U.S. of money held by U.S. individuals and companies now in foreign countries, with no tax consequence. American companies will return from offshore and overseas.

  34. It results in a windfall profit, likely to be invested in job-creating businesses, for many of those holding taxable corporate high interest bonds at the time of passage of FairTax, since the bonds will not be taxed under the FairTax. (Currently, a higher interest rate is usually paid to entice investors to buy the corporate bonds rather than go with the lower interest, but tax free, municipal bonds.)

  35. It results in Federal Reserve rates being based on current consumption, which is rather stable, instead of future earnings, which are less predictable, resulting in surer inflation prevention.

  36. It reduces production costs for farmers and other subsidized businesses, leading to a reduction in subsidies, thus reducing the federal budget.

  37. It moves many individuals now providing tax advice (return preparation, advice, accounting, planning, and records maintenance) into an expansive economy where they will be producing goods and services. There they can add to the standard of living of all Americans and likely earn more than they do currently, instead of shuffling paper for the government (and not contributing anything economically to society).

    FairTax and Churches and Non-profit Organizations

  38. All contributions to Churches and other non-profit organizations are made tax-free. These organizations no longer will bear the expense of filing tax returns with the IRS and paying their half of Social Security and Medicare payments for employees. In order to purchase goods and services tax free they will just have to apply to the state sales tax authority for a qualification certificate as a bona fide not-for-profit organization operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific or educational purposes.

  39. It restores to churches and non-profit organizations the 1st Amendment right to engage in free speech, without fear of losing their tax-free status.

    FairTax and Rights and Freedoms

  40. It restores the 4th Amendment, protecting against unreasonable searches and seizures, from which the IRS presently is exempt.

  41. It restores the 5th Amendment, which guarantees the right to due process. Under current systems the IRS has their own courts with their own set of rules not included in the 5th Amendment.

  42. It restores individual privacy. You no longer have to report where you work, what you are earning, and what you are doing with it. (Employers will report your earnings to the Social Security Administration for determination of your social security benefits.)

  43. It relieves citizens of the risk of facing the shift in burden of proof that is so common with the current system, i.e., the taxpayer is guilty unless proven innocent, but even the IRS staff sometimes gives conflicting interpretations.

  44. It eliminates the need to have a "marriage" clarification declaring who you live with, as that no longer has any bearing at all on a state or federal sales tax.

  45. It eliminates the need for courts to decide which divorced parent gets to take the tax deduction for children.

    FairTax and Government and Educational Entities

  46. Without FICA to pay, most states, counties, municipalities, and school districts will see a large increase in their available state budget revenues, additionally lowering the overall tax burden (State & Federal) for most Americans.

  47. It eliminates the administrative costs incurred by states in collection of state sales taxes because states will piggyback the state tax collection onto the national tax collection, for which they are compensated by the FairTax ¼% administrative cost give-back. (Retailers receive an equal amount for collecting the FairTax.)

    FairTax and Politics

  48. It cleans up a major flaw in campaign financing, eliminating campaign donations for "tax favors".

  49. It eliminates wrangling in Congress over tax cuts, the tax code, and who is or is not paying a fair share of the tax bill, providing more time for debate on more productive issues.

    FairTax and the Environment

  50. It’s good for the environment. Reportedly, the IRS sends out 8 billion pages of forms and instructions each year. Laid end to end, they would stretch 28 times around the earth. Nearly 300,000 trees are cut down yearly to produce the paper for all the IRS forms and instructions. Also, since it taxes only new items, it would encourage buying tax-free pre-owned cars, clothes, furniture, houses, etc. Reuse is good for the environment, too.

    Kenneth J. Van Dellen (with help from friends) 1/22/05

147 Comments:

At 1:35 PM, Blogger Mike said...

The poorest, those who currently work under the table, would suffer under this system. Right now, maids and others like them are forced to rent hotel rooms because they don't require a deposit or first and last month's rent. They don't currently pay taxes, so we only collect through sales taxes and corporate taxes. If we jump the price of goods by 20%, they will starve. (And in reality, the corporations would never lower their prices.) If the rich are faced with bread that costs 20% more, they will make a stink and then pull 20% more money out. If the really poor are faced with 20% more expensive bread, they will buy 20% less bread.

This is a conservative idea, regardless of the clever use of words like progressive and saying that it means to remove regressive taxes. Even with the prebate, which is a good idea, the poor are still forced to pay the taxes. Getting money at the end of the year to offset money you already spent on every item you bought works well for the rich, but the poor will simply not be able to survive the year of a 20% higher tax rate.

While many republicans might say "good, they aren't paying taxes now anyway," they aren't considering the reality of what desperate people do. Property crimes are committed by those with nothing.

The answer is in heavy progressive taxation. While it seems like this might drive the rich out, losing 50% of more than you could make anywhere else is...still making 50% more than you could anywhere else.

 
At 1:42 PM, Blogger Thurston said...

I have a question for you.

Suppose I make a million dollars and I spend 100% of it. Let's say the old tax was 35% and the new sales tax is 25%. I then spend 25% of my income, far less than I used to. In fact, I AM NOT ABLE TO SPEND THE SAME AMOUNT NO MATTER HOW HARD I TRY.

This means the government raised less money from me. Now, let's say that I only spent half of my money and invested the other half. I'm now paying 12.5% of my income.

If I'm very poor, I could even pay negative %s of my income overall (profit from the refund) according to this system.

Okay, so obviously these two groups are paying less than they used to.

The government still raises the same amount of money, right?

Who pays the money these two groups are not paying any longer?

As we saw at the beginning, those who were in a higher tax bracket cannot possibly pay as much as they used to, even if they try really hard. The people in poverty don't suffer so who does? People who are just barely beating out poverty get taxed like crazy to make up for all the people above them and below not doing it.

The tax distribution would go from
low : lowest
med-low : low
med : med
med-high : high
high-low : higher
high : highest

to

low : lowest
med-low : highest
med: highest
med-high: med
high-low: med
high : med

Really fair, isn't it?

 
At 2:21 PM, Blogger Neva Li said...

No one seems to realize that a significant change is needed to the present taxation system. I for one would love to see a system that would force illegal, "under the counter" dollars into the system. I know a fellow who makes $80K a year and pays no income taxes because it's all under the table. With this system, he would now be paying his fair share.

Melvin J. Jordan of Seattle, WA, was sentenced to 110 months in prison for his role in a drug distribution and money laundering conspiracy, which took place between 1999 and 2001. Jordan purchased and then resold at least 15 pounds of marijuana per month. He apparently used $358,864 in profits from the marijuana sales to purchase, furnish, sell and/or gift 5 real properties and 9 vehicles and, according to Court records, at least $474,914 for various personal items. Under the current system, no taxable income exists. Under the fair tax, this changes completely.

Bringing billions of dollars of illegal money out from under the table and into the system would help all of us.

 
At 2:38 PM, Blogger Thurston said...

neva li

Actually, money earned through illegal means IS taxable income. The fact that it's unreported and unpaid is a totally different issue. And you knew a guy who made $80k under the table? what makes you think that similar amounts of goods/services wouldn't be under the table after changes? Isn't a black market purchase easier to hide than $400k worth of stuff? I mean, how easy is it to tell the difference between $30k and $40k a year? 3M and 4M a year? At least now we occasionally catch the criminals.

 
At 3:20 PM, Blogger John said...

I think the FairTax has some distinct advantages over the current system, but there are some problems with it that are truly scary, and I'm afraid I'll have to decline to support it. The current income tax system should be eliminated and replaced with... nothing.

The first problem with the FairTax is its enormity. It's even bigger than you'd think at first glance; their 23% figure is calculated using a system very different from the way current sales taxes are figured. Based on the more familiar system it's more like 32% than 23%. Further, when State income taxes are converted to sales taxes and tacked on to this and the already existing sales tax, we'll be up to 50% or so.

Now, there are already plenty of people who cheat on sales taxes, and it's less than 10%. When it hits 50% you're going to see a lot of cheatin' going on, and a lot of federales investigatin' the cheatin'. If you think the IRS people are bad, consider that you're going to have Federal investigators covering every sales venue, including garage sales, classified ads, bazzars... "Yeah, you SAY it's used merchandise; prove it!"

My final objection is, while the FairTax concept might be reasonable as-is, it won't take long before the socialists start warping it out of shape. They'll start inflating the living expenses rebate on the grounds that the poor need it. They'll tack new taxes on certain forms of income because those dastardly rich people need to help out more. After a while the rebates will be more like subsidies and the creative won't have any incentive to work.

 
At 3:23 PM, Blogger Shoe said...

I think if you added to the "prebate" notion an exemption from tax of basic necessities (food, basic clothing and that sort of thing) you could make an argument for this. Without those it becomes a regressive tax in which the lower classes will pay a disproportionate percentage of their income in a consumption tax.

 
At 5:11 PM, Blogger Adam said...

I think that a lot of people are missing the point. A national sales tax would tax everyone on what they spend. Therefore, if you decide to save money and budget yourself wisely you will not pay as much in taxes. Conversely, if you decide to spend like crazy and not show any common sense with your cash you will pay a higher amount to the government. Sounds good to me. If that is too severe for some then why don't we just have a flat tax? That's fair, right? Everyone pays the same percentage. That way the rich pay the most and the poor pay the least. But no, too many people are jealous and envious of the rich in this country to let common sense into the equation. And let us not forget that the rich are not the only people that cheat on taxes. Plenty of lower and middle income families fudge their taxes each year. I am a married father in a middle to lower income bracket. It seems that a lot of people in my tax bracket seem to want to take money from the rich who have earned it fair and square and already pay more taxes than the lower brackets and give it to the whiners on welfare who can't seem to suck it up enough to get ahead. I have lost jobs before and will probably have to look for a job again. That doesn't make me a victim. It makes me a survivor. And only the strong survive. Leave other people's money alone. Live the American dream and go earn some yourself.

 
At 6:00 PM, Blogger Jim said...

Mike, it sounds to me as if you don't fully understand the proposed concept. The poor will not have to pay 20% more for bread because they'll get a monthly rebate for the price of the bread. Not only that, they'll not have 15% of their check for FICA and 10% for Income Tax taken out. Please Note I said 15% for Fica, don't by into this lie that the employer "matches" your Social Security "contribution". This is a cost of doing business for the employer and if all the employees expect it back in thier check they'll get it because the employer will have no choice. That being said the poor will get 48% more monthly income than what they have now. The poor make out like bandits if they understand the system. Also, keep in mind that about 50 % of consumer cost is taxes on any one given item. That .75 loaf of bread will suddenly cost about .35 cents, or for me .33 cent loaf of bread will be about .16 cents.

 
At 6:20 PM, Blogger Kristin said...

From what I understood of this type of plan, basic necessities, like food, would not be taxable. So the argument about the poor ending up being worse off is incorrect.

I don't know about you, but for regular purchases, I spend more on food every month than anything else (purchases, not payments like my house and car). Most poor people are not going clothes-shopping every weekend or to Home Depot.

The current tax system is NOT working. It is way too complicated. I should not have to pay someone to do my taxes...it should be easy to understand, even for someone with minimal education. I know people that don't even understand the EZ form!

 
At 6:37 PM, Blogger DDRnewguy said...

I would agree with the fair tax but believe that certain entitlement programs still need to be funded and directly related back to the individual. Without the payroll (social security tax), you don't know how much social security payment to make to an individual - cause the amount you get as a geezer is determined by the amount you payed in as a worker.

Ignoring this pretty much renders the reasons moot.

 
At 7:17 PM, Blogger Jim said...

but that wouldn't be a problem either, with private accounts for Social Secuity....that would finally get the government off the backs of the American people.

 
At 8:57 PM, Blogger Mike said...

Well Jim, you never said it would be a monthly rebate. I was saying that the poor wouldn't be able to afford the year up until they got their rebate. If it was monthly, clearly it would be easier to afford. But unfortunately, we are still left with what is essentially a regressive tax. The prebate covers what you think the poverty level is. Now, I am biased because the cost of living in the San Francisco bay area is around $30,000. So the 18K or so is not a reasonable amount for here. But even in an area where we assume the federal poverty level is enough, the issue is still that you are assuming businesses will lower their prices. In reality, they would absorb the increase as profit. When people complained, the companies would just point the finger at the government. And besides, even without a clear stand on taxes for services, you are still taxing every component of a sale. I realize you are only trying to tax it once, but what about printer paper or another commonly used item. Businesses would love to buy it tax free, and it would be all too easy to use today's shoddy accounting practices to act as though the paper would be used in a to-be-later-sold-product. It would be impossible to prove why each group was buying something, whether for a component of a product or an end use. When you think about the logistics of classifying literally every product bought or sold, the system becomes untenable.

Obviously, we need tax reform. But the problem lies with people like Adam. He is a victim, though he doesn't realize it. Flat taxes are automatically unfair to the poor, because while the rich can obviously afford 10% of their wages, the poor would starve. He thinks that it is fair to make everyone contribute, but in reality, everyone should contribute at the same effort level. By that I mean, to be fair, if you tax the poor to the point that they have to choose between rent and food, you may as well tax the rich to the same point. Since most of a rich person's income is disposable, this would mean something like 98 or 97%. I would be fine with this, but that is because I am young. My parents and I sit in the upper middle class bracket, making over 100K, but I think that in the overall scheme of things, the rich should be taxed more heavily because they are the ones who are able to do it.

If the fair-tax system proposed here were to be put into effect, the rich would not be taxed even remotely as hard as they are now. Their money comes from investment, which isn't a purchase. That is the whole reason we use income taxes: some people make more money than they spend. The poor, of course, spent every dollar they make. But the rich don't, and that is why we use the common sense income tax system we do. What made it complex was exceptions that the rich demanded.

 
At 11:07 PM, Blogger democracys said...

I can't really debate you on this, because you call it the "Fair Tax".

What you're talking about is a sales tax and/or a VAT (Value Added Tax), which is like a sales tax but is assessed at various points in the manufacturing process instead of just at the retail sales point.

You should use those terms, please.

You can certainly say "a sales tax would be fair", but to just name the thing the "Fair Tax" pretty much muddles the terminology and does not aid discussion. Nobody can be against a fair tax, right? So how can I rebut you. So why even bother to post.

Now, whether a sales tax/VAT would be better than income tax, that is open to discussion. Certainly many countries do use sales tax/VAT for a big part of their income.

It does tax consumption -- that's good. Obviously, it's also going to move the tax burden more onto lower-income people. Whether that's good or bad depends on your point of view.

I do note that you say it'd be revenue-neutral, then you say "An average family making $50,000 will have $7,500 more spendable income."
If that's true, then the difference would be made up people making more than or less than $50,000. I'm not sure I follow you here.

Also, I note that:
- a "prebate" is given to everyone, up to the poverty level.
- educational expenses are not taxed.
- sale of used goods are not taxed.
- the social security and medicare taxes are also eliminated.

Given all that, to be revenue-neutral, the sales tax would probably have to be in the range of 50%, right? At that rate, there would be a great incentive for cheating -- selling things under the table, or reporting a lower price than the actual price paid. To cover for that, you'd quite possibly have to raise the rate to around 60%.

That would mean that, in the purchase of a $250,000 home, there would be a $150,000 tax bill. A $20,000 car would come with a $12,000 tax bill. A $150 weekly grocery bill would become $240. And so forth.

So it's not like there would not be drawbacks here. You'd still be paying the same tax (well, more tax if you make under say $200,000), but just in a different way.

Anyway, it's noble of you to support a sales tax/VAT. It says in your profile that you're a secretary. A sales tax/VAT would probably increase your tax costs quite a bit, as I'm sure you realize. So you are going against your interests for a principle that you believe in, and I salute you for that.

 
At 11:10 PM, Blogger Mark said...

Mike, you are missing a huge point in your argument.

The nations poor are often living day to day on a shoestring and a prayer to make ends meet. Suddenly, the government gives them a pre-bate of, who cares, $4000, $8200, $6100, whatever. All of the sudden they have disposable income that they have not had before or may have never had in their lifetimes. What are they going to do with it?

They could do the responsible thing and put it in the bank knowing they will need it to offset increased costs throughout the year, or they could do what the vast majority of people who receive a windfall do. Spend it! I’m guessing the vast majority are going to spend it on things they want or think they need, only to look back 30-40 days later (If it lasts that long.) wondering where the money went and how they are going to manage for the rest of the year.

I have two sisters who can be counted in the rolls of the nations poorest. I have spent the last 4 years (very naively) trying to help both them and their families find their way to better fields with not only money but also opportunities. Not surprisingly, in retrospect, they have made zero progress. I have depleted my savings and IRAs of close to 12 thousand dollars in aide over those years only to see them in the same place with several nice new things in their houses but wanting more for things they need. I’m done with it! If the consumption tax is adopted, I have no doubt my sisters, and millions of others, will spend their dividend on unnecessary crap, fail to plan for the year ahead, bitching the whole time about how unfair the new tax code is to them. I had very little reason to believe my sisters would suddenly develop brains but tried anyway.

I have no reason what so ever to believe the majority of the nations poor will suddenly see the light. They will do the same thing my sisters did, and then complain to the social workers how hard it is to get by under the new tax code. Liberals will (Of course) be watching for and grasp this epoch tragedy at once, demanding more and more benefits and exclusions for the nations poor and start anew the mounds of special rules that currently define our present tax code.

I personally believe the consumption tax is fair, far more manageable, and effective than the current tax code.

We all have to live by the results of our decisions in life, upper class, middleclass, lower class, and poor. If we choose to be stupid and refuse to learn about what is going on around us, plan for it, and deal with it, then why should anyone have any sympathy for us as individuals? Just because we screwed up yet another opportunity to use what is given to us, in the way it was supposed to be used?

 
At 6:19 AM, Blogger Ron W. said...

I’m a simple person that likes things simple and out in the open. So I could be way off base but I believe the tax structure must be changed. Why not have a flat tax on ALL income whether it’s from working for a living or investments in property or stocks including income on mom and pop shops all the way to the multi billion dollar companies. People getting million dollar plus incomes or multi million dollar tax options all should have to pay the same percentage of that income. I’m tired of the rich hiring people to find loopholes.
I work at a dealership and one year in December we had every farmer around show up to buy a new truck, why? Because he needed/wanted a tax write off.

 
At 7:17 AM, Blogger Jim said...

I'm not sure were you guys are coming up with the idea that this is a yearly rebate, but it is not. It was not stated as such in the 50 reasons that I saw either. If you'll go to fairtax.org it explains that this is a monthly rebate, which is clearly much easier to handle. Mike, I'm going to assume since you stated you're young and implied leaving with parents that you are in your late teens or perhaps early twenties; if you're thinking about this at that age I salute you!

However, why do you believe it is fair to tax someone a greater percentage because they make more?? What this results in, is not that rich people get a higher tax but that middle class and working people get taxed heavier because of greater effort. For example, if I work overtime one week the payroll software has to assume under current code that I will continue this pattern therefore it goes from taxing my regular income of 10%-15% to taxing my overtime at 28%. Suddenly, I work overtime to pay the government, and that doesn't make good sense. Another example is as a part of my yearly raise after working at a company for several years, let's say my salary goes from 47000 to 50000 per year. While making 47000 lets say my tax bracket was in the 15% range, now suddenly at 50000 it is in the 28% range, now I bring home less money per week for my effort, hey I thought I was getting a raise! Nope, it goes to the government. I've seen that happen not only in my own life but to others as well. There is nothing fair about this "progressive" tax structure.

Again refer to my previous post, the poor would be able to afford this because they could profit from it. They would no longer pay income tax 10% or Fica, 15%. Plus they get a monthly rebate check of 23%! Wow that's an excellent deal. That's 48% more income than they have now, to pay for 23% higher prices. This doesn't consider any price change at all.

Competition will lower prices. You're correct at first businesses will try to absorb that extra as profit, but other businesses will enter the market place, or perhaps some with more ethics will decide not to do so. Here in RI, there is a lot of competition for goods and services so I have no doubt prices will tumble. Back home in Ga, where I'm originally from this might not happen, because of a lack of competition in the market place. It also depends on the market for individual items, etc.

 
At 8:18 AM, Blogger tom said...

This is called The FairTax Plan for good reason. No one is excluded. Progressive means the rich pay more. $23,000.00 tax paid on a NEW $100K car is more than $0.00 tax paid on a used $20,000.00 car. The rich are not going to change their lifestyle. What poor person ever created jobs for others? The eleven years of research and $22 million spent developing the Fairtax makes it the most totally prepared tax bill ever presented to congress. FAIRTAX.ORG explains FACTS. It dose not and can not address emotions. The worst thing happening in this country is the constant wailing for a SCREW THE RICH TAX PLAN. For those who are proponents of this kind of plan you should embrace the fact that all their loopholes, credits, and deductions will be eliminated. This country, for the first time in history, is being riveled economically by other countries, namely China and India. If we do not move to the FairTax, we will become a third rate power. Wake up and get educated people.

 
At 9:25 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Moving the tax burden to the middle class and taxing consumption is not the answer.

The US economy has been driven by consumption for 70 years plus...

What happens when the economy becomes stagnant ?

The wealthy will buy major purchases where they are cheapest, because they can. The wealthy travel more and have more options to move vast sums of money (untaxed) offshore.

This plan is a huge windfall to the super rich and combined with the end of the estate tax could wind the clock back 100 years.

 
At 9:25 AM, Blogger Paul245 said...

Moving the tax burden to the middle class and taxing consumption is not the answer.

The US economy has been driven by consumption for 70 years plus...

What happens when the economy becomes stagnant ?

The wealthy will buy major purchases where they are cheapest, because they can. The wealthy travel more and have more options to move vast sums of money (untaxed) offshore.

This plan is a huge windfall to the super rich and combined with the end of the estate tax could wind the clock back 100 years.

 
At 11:04 AM, Blogger Ron W. said...

"The worst thing happening in this country is the constant wailing for a SCREW THE RICH TAX PLAN."
Just looking for everyone to pay the same percentage, ya know even put the playing field.

 
At 11:06 AM, Blogger Ron W. said...

Sorry supposed to say even out, not even put

 
At 12:02 PM, Blogger jeff said...

imagine what happens when a "rich" person goes to their stock broker...
they sell a million shares of microsoft (a buyer will then have to pay the fair tax on this purchase cause you can't have a seller without a buyer). This "rich" person now has two options; 1. to hold onto the money and pay no tax , or 2. to puchase something and pay a tax.
If they puchase more stock for instance they will lose 25% to taxes thus eliminating some of the profit from the sale or compounding a loss even more. so instead the money is what put into a savings account at 2%, not likely. More likely its moved offshore to a foreign stock brokerage thus escaping any taxation on buying and selling stocks. What this means is large sums of american currency held offshore and some very serious implications for the american stock markets.
so you say we could exempt stock trades but the whole idea is to eliminate these very exemtions for where would they end?

 
At 12:20 PM, Blogger UberIcarus said...

To Jim:

Actually, you're understanding of the tax bracket system is increadibly flawed. If you get a raise, you allways take home more pay, if you do not qualify for some sort of means tested entitlement (for instance, if your raise would put you over the maximum for Earned Income Credit).

Why is that? Because you do not suddenly jump from say, 10% to 28%.

Lets use a hypothetical tax scale:

0-10,000 = 10%
10,001-20,000 = 15%
20,001-30,000 = 20%
30,001-40,000 = 25%
etc.

What this means (and this is the way our tax system works)is that if you make 20,000 dollars a year, that the first 10,000 is taxed at 10%, and the next 10,000 is taxed at 15%. It does not mean that if you go from 10,999 to 20,000 that all of your income is now taxed at 15%. Only that income which is in the next bracket.

Which means that if you go from making 10,000 a year, to making 40,000 a year. The first 10,000 is taxed at 10%, the next at 15%, the next at 20% and so on.

Which means that even the really rich get those really low tax brackets on the first few grand that they make. That is why it's intrinsically progressive and fair , if the government would have just left it the fuck alone. You see, implicit in the assumption of making very little money is that you cannot afford to have much money taken out in taxes because the amount of money you have for discretionary spending (spending not immediately tied into meeting normal necessities of life) is much smaller than someone with alot of money. And likewise, someone with a lot of money can afford a larger amount of money to be taxed, because they have much larger sums of discretionary income. The difference is infact so stark, that the average person from poor to middle class spends a majority of every months pay on food, rent/mortgage, insurance, transportation, utilites, and debt. As such, the average american is about 2-4 paychecks away from financial solvency. Now, the very wealthy on the otherhand, have the vast majority of their income as discretionary income, upwards of 97-98% of it is discretionary at the highest brackets. That means that they meet basic necessities on roughly 2-3% of their total income. The average american spends roughly 1/5th of their monthly income on food alone.

This is inherently why flat-taxes are unjust. It would shift the majority burden of payment of taxes unto those least able to pay. Not to mention it would cause a whole host of other economic issues.

 
At 2:04 PM, Blogger tom said...

To everyone who likes our current tax system, likes the IRS. is all in favor of income redistribution.and would like to raise YOUR standard of living. What's your plan? Please keep it legal. This class warfare thing gets real old. It's as old as life itself. "From each according to his ability, to each according to their need." Is this where we're headed? Also, could someone please tell me what 23% of $1.5 trillion is.

 
At 6:51 PM, Blogger Rich Putman said...

Why not a flat tax?
Office technology and the Internet have made it MUCH easier for tens of millions of people to work out of their homes instead of getting corporate pay checks. For such people, the issue of what's a tax deductible business expense and what's a personal expense is typically debatable. Thus, you'd need to still have some version of the IRS enforcement people, with all the associated history of citizen abuse.

Here is a link to a site which in table format compares the income tax, the FairTax, and a flat tax.
http://www.geocities.com/~cmcofer/compare.html

Sock it to the rich
Tax rates above 90% for ANY citizens? Doesn't work. People will vote with their feet. It happened big time to Britain when they had super high rates. They even had a name for it: The Brain Drain. I.e., their most productive, talented people left the country.

Where will the "missing money" come from?
The underground economy is estimated to be HUGE. Those people will continue to shop at Walmart and buy groceries. They will thus be turned into tax-payers, whereas now they are federal tax avoiders.

Also the incredible time and money now spent on compliance with the impossibly complex income tax system, will now be freed up.

Don't tax necessities such as groceries?
(1) As soon as you exempt a product category, even such as groceries, you open Pandora's box to special interests and fighting about which purchase categories deserve special treatment and which ones do not. That's one of the glaring problems with the current income tax system. It's been a question of who can BUY the best loopholes from Congress. A major goal of the FairTax is to get away from the "I deserve special treatment" syndrome.
(2) Groceries are already NOT taxed because of the prebate.

Education is KEY
It’s been my observation that most people who write negatively about the FairTax have not spent much time at FairTax.org. Nearly all the objections raised in this dialogue have been answered there.

 
At 7:29 PM, Blogger Jim said...

To UberIcarus:

That is an oversimplification of our current tax code and thus illistrates my point! Once you start taking deductions, adding the concept of a mortgage, 401K, schedule c for investments, etc, etc, etc, believe the scenario I illustrated earlier indeed not only becomes possible it happens all too often. Be careful with using words like "always", nothing is ever absolute, especially with the current tax code.

To Jeff:

I believe this is a sales tax not a tax on investment, therefore by definition investment in a company would not be considered taxable. I would say that if taxing that sort of investment would be a disaster.

To all others out there supporting a "progressive" income tax: Why?? Once you factor in the "Earned Income Tax Credit" what you have is legalized theft. This is the same as going to your local politician and saying "Please take some money from someone who earned it at the point og a gun and give it to me."

 
At 7:42 PM, Blogger Jim said...

The only thing that bothers me here, I must point out that yes the law repeals the income tax, but it does not repeal the 16th Amendment so an income tax could come back and we'd then have both! This would be a nightmare. We should repeal the 16th Amendment also.

 
At 9:51 PM, Blogger UberIcarus said...

Social insurance vs. abject poverty (i.e. minimum standards of decent living) is not the same thing as theft. It's insurance, whereby everyone in society pays for it.

Also, I am infact, still right in reguards to how our tax system works. So long as your raise does not disqualify you for a special exemption or entitlement, you will not lose money, you will allways, in all other cases, take home more money.

Do not accuse me of over-simplifying our tax system when you were in fact stating that if you jump a bracket, all of your money gets taxed at the next higher bracket, that's not oversimplification: its plain wrong.

 
At 11:14 PM, Blogger jeff said...

to jim :
is not a share of stock a part of the company thus making your the holder a part owner as it were in that company,so many things can be bought as an investment; house , coins, diamonds , cars ect. The investment loophole would become extinct for a fair tax to work and so we return to my original post.

 
At 12:38 AM, Blogger UberIcarus said...

To Jeff:

Precisely as I said in the other post on this thread. If I buy tools, and use them to produce widgets that increase my capital. I would obviously be taxed under this "fair" tax initive, at the point I purchased the tools, but not at the point I made more money from them.

Soo...likewise since we're being "fair" you would tax the purchase of stock, which is in fact little more than part ownership of "tools" which may or may not produce you more net capital through their sale of widgets or services. No fundamental difference.

To say that you would tax the former as a purchase, but the latter would be untaxed as an "investment" when you are in fact purchasing something, is specious and "unfair". There is no distinction.

 
At 7:26 AM, Blogger Kathi said...

You present your argument in a consise manor that informs and educated. You made a number of points I had not thought of. Now I do wish to add a point that to me is a big deal.

This fair tax would force drug dealers, illegals and cash payment receipiants to pay taxes, which they do not do now. That alone would add to the government coffers by quite a bit.

I am all for the fair tax. As far as those who whine that it will cost the poorest people who do not pay taxes now - so!!!! maybe it will motivate them to get out and earn more, even if it mean they have to learn proper grammer and english

 
At 8:12 AM, Blogger UberIcarus said...

kathi-

Obviously you've never heard of "macroeconomics" or things like "structural poverty" or "structural inequality" or for instance how sex or race plays into how much you'll earn.

The majority of the poor do in fact work, also, the majority of the poor are women. A significant number of them have children, and you are significantly more likely to be poor (per capita) if you are not white.

Also, reguardless of your level of education or experience, if you are a woman or not white, you can on average expect to make less money than someone who is either male or white, even if they have the exact same (and sometimes poorer) skills, education, and experience. Also, you're less likely to get hired in the first place.

Not to mention that minimum wages are set well below the "actual" poverty level.

And this would not have any significant effect on drug dealings, in fact, that's a very stupid red herring. Nor would it have a significant tax windfall from said dealings.

Ergo, read some cursory economics, and then comment.

 
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There are many rebuttals to almost everyone's posts here. However, I need to make one important point. Everybody is asking "who's gonna get it from the man?" If somebody is doing better, others have to suffer. That's not neccesarily true in this case. The revenue neutrality doesn't come from winners and losers. Joe CEO and Jill Maid will both be winners under this system. The same amount of tax revenue is raised because of several things: income from present tax cheats, illegal activities, tourists to this country, illegal aliens (seen any of those lately?), and most importantly, less compliance costs with a more effecient system.

It isn't, unlike what everybody is thinking, from wealth redistribution. Grow up and stop your class warfare.

 
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At 9:16 AM, Blogger wessez said...

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It'd be great if you were to drop by for a few seconds - have a look around, check out a few of the informative links I've got there.

 
At 7:49 PM, Blogger Ebook Manic said...

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Regards

 
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I am based in the UK and I stumbled across your post " The 50 Reasons I Support the Fair Tax ".
I'm quite keen on finding any useful information on Online Business. I found some good stuuf on Online Business but I wondered whether you may have any advice on the best resources out there.

Thanks in advance.

 
At 3:51 PM, Blogger wessez said...

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At 2:59 AM, Blogger wessez said...

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At 6:47 PM, Blogger Matthew Humphries said...

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I was busy looking for information on Powerseller Package and I came across your post " The 50 Reasons I Support the Fair Tax ". Very interesting. If possible, have you got any ideas of where to find the best resources on Powerseller Package.

Regards

 
At 6:56 PM, Blogger wessez said...

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At 1:32 PM, Blogger Jack said...

First I should say I am a FT volunteer. As I read these interesting responses one thing jumps out at me and that is alot of disinformation or lack of understanding. There are alot of concerns raised by people who seem scared by such a plan. This plan is gaining much support and currently has 55 congressional co-sponsors. The grassroots movement is growing daily especially since the Fair Tax book came out with over 700,000 signing the online petition. I would encourage everyone to go to www.fairtax.org or call "1-800-fairtax" get all the information before forming a judgement
Jack

 
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At 4:11 PM, Blogger johnwk said...

I am astounded that any freedom loving person would support H.R. 25___ the alleged fair tax, which is a socialist friendly, big government friendly tax plan.

If you think you are not being conned and H.R. 25 is not a socialist friendly, big government friendly tax proposal, then take the time to study, with an open mind, the following
MESSAGE TO FAIR TAX RALLY PARTICIPANTS which is fully documented!

For example, you will learn that H.R. 25 violates the founding fathers agreed upon rule by which the various states are to contribute in a general tax among the states to fill the national treasury. Our Founding Fathers created a fair share formula in our Constitution to insure a fair system of taxation. Our founding fathers agreed to change the rule from a tax based upon wealth practiced under the Articles of Confederation to a general tax among the states which tied representation and taxation together.

Each state agreed, by the ratification of our Constitution, to pay a general tax based upon its voting strength which would insure that those states paying the lions share of the tax burden to fund the Constitutionally authorized functions of the federal government, would likewise have a proportional voice in how their money would be spent . . . an idea which socialists and the friends of big government fear with a passion!

H.R. 25 ignores this important rule. H.R. 25, just as income taxation [ a Marxist type of tax], seeks to intentionally calculate the amount of tax to be paid from wealth, property and financial success within each particular state ___ a political philosophy advocating from each state according to its ability, rather than an equal per capita tax apportioned among the states as the founding fathers intended by our Constitution’s fair share formula, which our various states agreed to by their ratification of our Constitution.


JWK ___ a proud supporter of our founding father’s original tax reform plan.


"To lay with one hand the power of the government on the property of the citizen and with the other to bestow upon favored individuals, to aid private enterprises and build up private fortunes is none the less a robbery because it is done under forms of law and called taxation." ___Savings and Loan Assc. v. Topeka,(1875).

 
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At 3:03 PM, Blogger momospy said...

The Americans For Fair Taxation (fairtax.org) are on a mission to squash out any public criticism of the FairTax plan and are attempting to exploit the federal trademark system for the ADMITTED purpose of being able to shut down anti-FairTax websites during the upcoming elections. They have an open application to obtain a service mark for the word "FairTax." Genie Hayes, the communications director for AFFT, openly admitted that the goal of AFFT is to get this service mark and be able to yank any anti-FairTax websites as well as to have total control over any shirts, bumper stickers, or anything of that nature that is printed with the word FairTax. They are attempting to get the strong arm of the federal government to back them up in hindering free speech and open/honest debate.

The FairTax is promising to become a rather prominent issue in the upcoming Congressional elections--and if AFFT succeeds in obtaining this service mark, they are going to be in an excellent position to keep people from criticizing the FairTax Act.

The time for opposition to their application is fast approaching. I know that an application for a service mark can't be opposed just because the applicant's motive is unethical. However, I do believe that there is a very STRONG case that AFFT doesn't meet the legal requirements for obtaining a service mark. The strongest argument is all around us--the phrase "Fairtax" is SYNONYMOUS with H.R. 25 and the Fair Tax Plan.

Unfortunately, as it stands right now, I think they'll win their service mark and they'll be on the road to having the power to tell people that they cannot participate in public debate regarding H.R. 25. Perhaps, at least, the public will be informed of this attempt to filter open and honest critiques.

 
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At 5:37 PM, Blogger discoveryccards said...

Hi there Deborah, I am building a website containing info on airline credit cards, so I´m
out searching for link exchange partners.
Even though The 50 Reasons I Support the Fair Tax isn´t a perfect match, maybe a
link exchange would be interesting??
Great post thanks for the read.

 
At 2:19 PM, Blogger d.a.n said...

The current tax system is regressive and unfair. Even Warren Buffet agrees.

However, the un-Fair[30% Sales]Tax System (or 23.1% inclusive tax based on $30 Tax on $100 item ; 23.1% = $30/[$100+$30]) is a fraud.

For one thing, all sales taxes are regressive (i.e. as income decreases, the percentage paid to taxes increases).

Here's why.

And who supports the un-Fair[30% Sales]Tax (or 23.1% inclusive tax) system?

Here's a better tax system which most Americans polled prefer.

 
At 6:04 AM, Blogger Churchill Q. Washington said...

Mr. Van Dellen,

Your assessment of the Fairtax is absolutely correct. I would like to suggest another advantage; the political playing field would become truly fair as politicians would no longer be able to influence cultural behavior by dint of tax code. This then would create a MASSIVE shift in real political power from politicians and back to the average consumer.

Keep up the great work!

 

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